Resilience, leadership, and building what people really need

Interview Summary

Redefining Success Through Joy

Timestamp: 00:14–01:35
Ingrid explains how traditional corporate paths left her unfulfilled, leading her to startups. She emphasizes joy as success—found in challenge, learning, and meaningful work rather than money alone.

From Corporate to Startup Founder

Timestamp: 01:50–06:05
Ingrid recounts founding Safety Docs at 21, building it across Brazil, Canada, and the US. She shares lessons from leadership, cultural challenges, and overcoming bias as a young woman founder.

Building Resilience and Boundaries

Timestamp: 08:18–13:43
Ingrid reflects on rejection, bias, and lessons learned from her entrepreneur mother. She stresses cultivating resilience, putting boundaries in place, and being willing to make others uncomfortable to protect one’s voice.

Listening to Market Signals

Timestamp: 16:40–21:57
Ingrid advises founders to avoid confirmation bias, seek honest feedback, and test customer willingness to pay. She highlights coachability and early market validation as crucial to building sustainable businesses.

Finding Balance and Joy in the Work

Timestamp: 29:29–32:18
Ingrid defines success as doing impactful, energizing work with founders. She recharges through workouts, reading fiction, and introverted downtime, using physical activity and creativity to restore focus and joy.

Transcript

You're listening to Joy of Business, a collection of audio essays, timely discussions, and stories featured on digitalentrepreneur.com. That was a clip from Ingrid Polini—tech founder, mentor, and COO of Climate Door—sharing what joy is the new success means to her.

In our conversation, Ingrid reflects on navigating entrepreneurship as a young woman in male-dominated industries, the challenge of moving across continents to start over, and how deep work—not the spotlight—fuels her joy.

Keep listening to hear how Ingrid built a cash-positive startup before turning 25, how she mentors founders to tune in to market signals over ego, and why her punching bag might be her most underrated business tool.

Barrak Alzaid (00:00)

Hi Ingrid, welcome to the Joy of Business. I'm so happy to have you on today.

Ingrid (00:04)

Yeah, thank you for having me.

Barrak Alzaid (00:07)

I am curious, starting us off, I want to know what does joy is the new success mean to you?

Ingrid (00:14)

Look, that's an interesting question. feel like, so I'll give you an example for me what the joy ⁓ is the new success means for me. When I first started my first degree, so my first degree was in business admin, so like a BBA. ⁓ I really thought I wanted to work for large corporations. That was my goal, right? Like working in marketing for large corporations.

And I found those jobs and I was rid of them, but I did not enjoy working. There was stability. There was a clear career path and all of that. But for me, it was not fulfilling because I am someone that likes to move fast and do a lot of different things at the same time. So I started moving away from that and started my startup. And until this day, I'm in the startup world in one capacity or the other. So I do believe that the joys in your success is that people are realizing that we spend most of our lives at work. then if you don't find joy, finding joy does not mean just doing things that you want to do. Finding joy is also challenging yourself and learning. But if you don't find joy in what you do, then it's really not success just for the sake of money. It's redefining how success is to us.

Barrak Alzaid (01:35)

I think that idea of redefining success is so key and so many people pursue the entrepreneurial path so that they can set those metrics for themselves. And if you talk to any entrepreneur, everyone will have a slightly different answer and I find that really exciting. So let's hear about your own journey as an entrepreneur. Tell us about your background and tell us about how you got to be where you are now working with startups.

Ingrid (01:50)

Yeah. It's funny because I haven't been interviewed to a podcast in a while. I've been interviewing people for a while, but I love that question. So I started my career doing a lot of work in large corporations. So I had passed this to General Electric, I had passed this to SAP. And as I said, I was feeling restless. I was like, I need to do something else.

So my co-founder came up with the idea of a platform that took care of the workflow for permits and licenses for large corporations.

I knew nothing about permits and licenses, to be honest, but I knew about tech. So she was like, I need someone to lead the tech team, create a software. And I'm like, that sounds right up my alley. It was right on the cusp. I was doing that and then I was having problems at the job that I was at the time. And I left that job. And I think like one or two months later, we got a really large contract, which means that the company was cash positive on my startup. My startup was called a safety docs.

So all of a sudden I was like, well, I think I'm finally doing this entrepreneurship thing. And I think that the passage, so I passed through large companies, but I also passed through some startups. And what it taught me was the kind of leadership I wanted to be and the kind of leadership I didn't want to be, but also ⁓ the kind of culture I wanted to build and the kind of culture I didn't want to build inside my company.

So I worked on my company for eight years. brought it from Brazil to Canada and the US. That's when I moved to Canada. I always say eight to nine years. I can't remember exactly when I moved at this point. need to count the years. it was a completely different experience. I was building my company when I was 21. And then I dealt with lot of prejudice because of that, right? I wasn't a woman in a very male dominated space. I was very young, which funny enough, I still get comments off of them not like I'm not 21 anymore, but because I look younger. So I still get that prejudice over and over. Um, I guess I should thank my family for the genetics that I still look 22, but it's, it's a, gets a bit tiring after a while. And then when I moved to Canada, and I always say this, that I didn't know anyone in Canada to the point that my emergency contact was my Airbnb host. So I'm like, I'm moving to a new country. I was studying at the time I was doing my masters, actually my second bachelor's, which was in nutrition. And then after my master's and I'm like, okay, I need to connect with people. If I want to be successful in business, if there's one thing that I need to do is networking.

So any free moment that I had besides working out and working at the gym, which wasn't a lot of free moments, I did a lot of networking.

And one of the things that that these taught me was being really resilient to rejection because I get a lot of people telling me it's like, ⁓ like, I don't want to reach out because what if they say, no, I got so many nos in my life and I never took it personally. I'm like, you know, this person doesn't have time to talk to me. That's fine. And eventually, maybe three or four years later, I got the chance to connect with them again. But I build my connections really fast in Canada.

And then after a while, I started mentoring other startups. So Canadian Accelerator Programs invited me to speak and invited me to mentor other startups from my experience. From there, I did a small M &A with my company because as you were saying, the joy in business, I wasn't feeling joy in that project anymore. And I had the opportunity to do so. I went to a VC firm.

Uh, and after the venture capital firm, now I am the COO of climate door. I love the impact side. Uh, it was what I wanted to do when I left safety docs, which is learning that I love the operational side. I love being in the weeds and dealing with chaos and that I can view, like, I can support climate founders in commercializing and helping their, companies, uh, get where they want to go.

Barrak Alzaid (06:05)

There's the what of entrepreneurship, right? The, I want to tackle this problem. I want to solve this pain point. And then there's also the how, what kinds of things you like to chew over, what keeps you up at night in the best way possible. And it sounds like you were able to marry the two with your current position. Did you come to find that you were interested in impact? How did you come to find that you love dealing with the chaos and operations?

Ingrid (06:34)

Yeah, that's a great question. So in terms of impact, I think it was something it was always a vein that I had. So I've been vegan for 10 years, right 10 more more than that at this point. And so I always had a thing for climate impact and all that. But I was in part or privy to that side of business per se.

And then from that side, we, when I was part of a fund at the fund, we invested in sustainable tech, we invested in ag food tech. So I started learning more about those areas and learning about the incentives and learning more about working with hardware tech and all of that.

So it was like a natural transition for me, like supporting and I'm still learning a lot because like it's a completely different side of the business. But in terms of knowing that I like the chaos, I think that it was a transition. So I was a CEO for my company and I never truly wanted to be the CEO.

I can do, I can network like the best of them, but it's not what brings me joy. I, I like doing this. I like doing events, but my joy comes from deep work, deep in the weeds, organizing things, which is funny because every time I say that in networking, everyone is like, not a lot of people like that. That's why they're people like having me on the team sometimes because I, I love the part that most people hate.

When I started with this position, it was really, like, yeah, I really like to be on the operational side, but also learning on my other positions that I had, this was the part that I liked while the other parts I could take it early. Right? So I think it was years of trial and error in different positions in different capacities. And that's why I started so early to figure out what I want to do and what I liked.

Barrak Alzaid (08:18)

It sounds also that along your journey, you encountered a lot of challenges, some coming from implicit bias towards your age, towards your gender, even towards, you know, your ⁓ status as an immigrant to Canada in your early stages. So what kind of advice do you have for building resilience? I understand that you are able to handle no and rejection very well. how did you, how did you develop that sensibility? Was this something that you always had or something that you had to cultivate?

Ingrid (08:53)

I was having a conversation with someone not so long ago and I think that a lot of it was cultivated, but I think a part of me was learned by example. And I say this especially for my friends that have kids, which, so my mom, she entered civil engineering when there was actually only four women in the engineering school. When she entered university. And actually when she went to apply, the head of that school came down to ask her, are you sure you want to be in here? It's really hard, even though she already had passed exams. In Brazil you have to do an exam to get into university. And my mom started her business really young as well. you can imagine in the nineties, like it was even worse, right? So I think that I learned a lot from her.

of not letting get things to me but also more than that it was just for me it was normal to have a mom that worked, for me, was normal to have a woman that led a team. It was just what I learned. So it was funny because I would go to school and then all the moms, a lot of the moms come in with like yoga pants and like, know, sports with my mom would just come in like in the full suit, drop me off. And the kids would be like, your mom works. And I was like, your mom doesn't work. I don't understand. Like it didn't, you know, the clash of realities. ⁓ And I was in her office since I was a kid. Like I was helping, I begged my mom for job at her company. My first job was actually when I was 12, 13. My job was getting the business cards on the system. Thanks to GPT for that, cause it's not needed anymore. But at the time, you know, like getting the business cards on the business, on the system. So with that note, I think the part of it comes from, I see that a lot of the especially women founders that I coach and I mentor.

They were taught to be very quiet. They were taught to be very, you know, not cause a ruckus, not cause discomfort into other people. That wasn't what I was taught. So I think for me creating that resilience, it was different because of the way that I grew up ⁓ having a woman that didn't take that. My mom, we all used to always say, you have a very strong opinion, but it's better to have an opinion than to have none.

Right? So she never really took that away from me. She never really told me to be quiet, told me to not have that opinion. When we talk about building that more, I think it comes from, you know, like putting yourself out there so you can learn how to deal with rejection, which is really uncomfortable. And the second part of that is learning that when you put your boundaries up, and I know that I speak of that and I've set up this before in a couple of interviews, like I speak of that on a place of privilege right now, that I do have the privilege of putting boundaries when I sin fed, because there's people that depending on their job position, depending on their situation, they don't have that privilege. Now, when you do put the boundaries, you have to be ready to make people uncomfortable.

And this is something that people don't expect. When you start putting boundaries in and say like, well, I don't find that joke funny. um, it was funny cause now I teach my mom, my mom called me the other day. She's like, I use your technique because there's a client that yelled, I was yelling at her on the phone. was like, mom, this is what you're going to do. You're going to be silent. And then he's going to say like, you're not going to say anything. I was like, are you going to let me speak? And then the guy was silent and then she was able to, I was like, you don't, you don't find.

for your voice to be heard. You stay there. It's like, you not gonna say anything? Are you gonna let me speak? Right? When you go to a call and someone keeps interrupting you, it's not to react with, know, hey, don't like stop doing that. Nervous. It's like, I am not done speaking. I haven't finished my train of thought. Very constrict, very pointed. But when you do that, you have to expect that people won't accept it well.

And you have to learn that it's a bit of the rejection sensitivity. have to internalize that and you have to like, okay. Breathe. It's not about you. It's not like, you know, the people pleasing, pleaser in us doesn't like making other people uncomfortable. But, have empathy with yourself and respect your space. So you don't put yourself in a position for people to do that over and over. Does that answer your question.

Barrak Alzaid (13:12)

Absolutely, I feel that so much. And I think we really have to deal with our internal stuff and understand ourselves and what we're bringing into the room in order to navigate those kinds of situations. And slowing down, I think, is a really key element of that.

Ingrid (13:43)

I wish I could say something different for people that deal with different biases at work. I wish I could change the world and say this is not a problem anymore, but unfortunately we have to deal with the situations that we were presented with and learn how to work with that.

Barrak Alzaid (13:57)

Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense, especially because you have so much experience working in cross-cultural contexts. And the communication strategies that you have developed over time seem really effective across a wide variety of contexts.

But we often, depending on the situation that we go into, we might miss social cues. We might misread or misunderstand what and how somebody is saying something and vice versa. So if you have a solo founder, somebody who's early stage, who has to do a lot of stuff themselves, and they're maybe dealing with a lot of different contexts, people from all across the world, what is something that they should be mindful of as they're entering those new contexts

Ingrid (14:47)

I would say enter it with curiosity. When we talk, especially because I know your public is a lot of Canadians and ⁓ Americans, is that people tend to have, from this specific country, tend to have a narrow view of what culture looks like outside their bubble, and especially if you're not used to dealing with different cultures, really enter it with curiosity and learning. So one thing that I always do whenever I'm going to work with a specific group of people, even if it's Latin America, I know really well. But I gave, for example, a couple of talks to a group from Costa Rica. I went to research like different cultural differences between Costa Rican and Canada, cultural differences between Costa Rica and Brazil. It's a quick search, but it can tell you a lot. So I'll give you an example. In Brazil, even in a lot of work, depends on which area from Brazil you are. But even in a lot of work meetings, it's custom for you to give someone a kiss on the cheek. Right? One kiss from where I'm from. But other parts of Brazil, it's two kisses, which can get really awkward if you don't know, because you're ready for one kiss. And this happened even when I go to the console. You're ready for one kiss. The person comes for the second and you're like, I was not ready for that. Right? So it's like small things that you can research that can make you prepared to not create a socially awkward situation.

Like in case of even if you if you notice like the difference between Now I'm generalizing like Americans and Canadians like Americans are way more open to talk about their families about everything else at work Canadians are way more reserved So learning those small cultural differences, even though you're like a busy entrepreneur you have to do a lot But just like small things really helps you understand one

how to not make the other person uncomfortable and second how to deal with your discomfort in a different situation.

Barrak Alzaid (16:40)

That makes a lot of sense. And I'm also interested now getting into bit more of the nuts and bolts of how you make a business work. I know you have so much experience in the different sectors and also in different modes of operating from early stage to scale up. You are also an investor and a mentor. So you have all these different hats that you wear. And one of the things that you've discussed with us here at Digital Entrepreneurs, that it's so important to develop products that actually satisfy market demand. This seems like very basic knowledge. Seems like everybody kind of understands it, but what do you think early entrepreneurs are getting wrong about finding what that demand is?

Ingrid (17:21)

So when we talk about biases, we have a lot of different ways, but we also have confirmation bias. So the phrase that you've seen me use in articles is that no one likes to hear that they're babies. So you're really excited about this company. You're really excited about what you're building. And then if someone tries to tell you, well, is this going to work? You're like, no, no, no, I don't want to hear you.

You know, it's challenging to hear and sometimes people won't even be telling you that what you're doing doesn't work. They will be challenging your views. So I actually like to work with people that challenge my views all the time. Is it comfortable? No. But having people with different perspectives is challenging but as you're starting, you have to be able to hear it. So whenever we talk about investment accelerators and all that, one of the highest ⁓ traits that people look for is coachability.

And coachability is not doing, at least for the most of them, is not doing everything that your investor tells you to do, but hearing it and journalizing it and then deciding what you want to do with that information. So what I would say is really working on hearing the feedback and hearing what people challenge you with. It doesn't mean that you have to take everything at heart. One of those things I say, so I work in a couple of accelerator programs that they have more than one mentor.

And I tell them, like, look, the, what I'm telling you here, take with a grain of salt, like you would take from every single mentor, collect the information, and then you make the decision based on what is right for you. Me as a mentor, I won't be mad that you didn't do exactly what I said. It's my perspective from this. And I, like, I mentor people from different markets. I, CPG brands to SAS, to hardware So it's really, I was like, this is based on what I know.

My vision is limited because I'm just one person, right? So I always say like, get mentorship, hear it, internalize it and see, does that make sense? And then take also with a grain of salt. If it's someone that is not from your industry or if it's like, you know, it's different someone coming to you and say like, this is not going to work to someone that is from the industry, specific industry that you want to work with challenging you and how it would work.

Right? So I think that early feedback and putting it in front of people from the industry early is the best way to learn more and hearing the market signals, which is really important, not getting your head on the like, but if only I built this, like really hearing the market signal. You build something that people actually want to buy.

Barrak Alzaid (19:57)

And when you say market signals, what are you referring to exactly?

Ingrid (20:01)

I'll give you an example that I use a lot. was a podcast interview that I did. I can't remember which one but she was telling me that she built a platform that was a platform so you can keep your private documents secure. So kind of like Google Docs, but way more specific for like, especially immigrants that have a lot of like, you know, immigration documents and all of that. And when she went to do the interviews for it she asked me, it was like, would you use a platform like that? That's more secure than Google Docs. And everyone's like, yeah, I would. I've loved it. Like would I? Yeah. What she didn't ask was would they be willing to pay for a different platform? She built a product for two years, launched it. And then she learned that the necessity wasn't big enough. It wasn't big enough of a pain for people to actually pay for a secondary platform.

When there was the money constraint, they're like, I'd rather just put it on Google Docs or OneDrive or whatever it is. So when I say market signals, it's really, your, your questions when you have access to the possible customer, are they biased? Are you actually like, are you using the confirmation bias to validate your own assumptions or are you actually asking open-ended questions? Is the market telling you that, you know, in your specific use, people don't like using software. don't know, like, there was one company I was mentoring that they were doing a solution for construction to use on the field and where I live. they were, they were doing specific for Vancouver Island first. And when I live, I was like, is, does it work without internet? And they're like, no. And I'm like, buta lot of the sites here, I barely have signal in my home. Like a lot of the sites here don't have internet. So those market signals that I say is like, you have to build something that works for the customer you want to work with, right? Even if it's a secondary, like a second iteration of the product.

Barrak Alzaid (21:57)

That's such a tough situation to be in, what you described to feel, to really believe in, you know, what you're building and to, you know, hear on one level that there's a need for it, spend two years developing something that nobody wants to buy. I mean, that's, yeah, that can be really heartbreaking. And obviously there's a lot of learning to do in that. ⁓ But I think that's something that also is an indication of another challenge or a sign of another challenge entrepreneurs face, which is making money as they're developing something.

So do you have any advice whether somebody is making a digital product or promoting a digital service? And they need income fast. Are there any underrated money habits you think that founders should be incorporating early on?

Ingrid (22:43)

So I love that you asked this question and I'll answer it. But before I answer it, just want to tell you, ⁓ it's really common for people to get very weird advice on that note. I had a startup that was ⁓ university students. They were in the last year of university. The startup was doing super well, but they were finishing their university and they got into an accelerator program in the Bay Area in Silicon Valley.

And the guy from the accelerator called them and said, Hey, you need to drop out of school and come here and just do your, focus on your company. And they called me because I was their main mentor. And they're like, Ingrid, does, I was like, does this guy have a degree? Yeah. I was like, exactly. Don't like, don't drop. You're in the last year of university. Don't drop out of school. Finish your degree. It's a great plan. Having a degree is a good thing.

You can continue like I build my company while finishing three degrees. You're going to be fine. It might be a little bit of a struggle, but like finish what you started. Right. So there is a lot of advice. It was like, you should, you should never, I gave a keynote speech in Bermuda. And then I say like, have a plan B from your plan A. So it's something that is not common advice. Because most people will say, you should just go in with everything you had, all your money, you have no plan B. I say that's a very privileged position to be because most of the people might have family that can bail them out, might have money. Like not everyone has that. What I say in the terms of plan B is have an option that makes you feel secure to keep pursuing the thing that you want to pursue. And there was one of the people on the top, in the audience that did not like that.

So it's not, I've learned that it's very controversial. That said, I would say that if you have a job, if like, let's say you're working on your entrepreneur journey and you have a job, I wouldn't leave my job right away. I didn't when I ended it. I know a lot of founders that worked like their morning jobs and then did the entrepreneurship at, in the afternoon. If you plan to leave after a certain time, make sure that you have some safety net or like as much as you can in terms of saving money i'm a big saver like I it's something that I think it comes from my culture as well as like always wanting to make sure that I have enough money but also Entrepreneurship already creates the stress stress enough. You don't want to also stress where your next meal is going to come from right?

There is digital products. I don't have that much experience with digital products to be able to talk about them freely, but there is remote jobs. There's jobs that you can do hourly that are more flexible than your like your eight to four, right? there are jobs that incentivize. So I have a friend that he works at Google, for example, and he does a lot of speaking on the side. It's not a specific entrepreneur, but he does a lot of like stage, like on stage and Google is really flexible with that.

finding a job that really accepts and even encourages you to have an entrepreneurship's journey. But I would say that like in the finding finding either digital products and all that. I don't have that much experience with digital products to say so, but I did a lot of mentorship. did a lot of article writing and did like things on the side that can help sustain while you continue building. The other thing is a lot of startups do is creating a service. let's say you want to create a software platform, but you don't have the money to create the platform yet. They actually create the service to validate that, but as well as make money with the service to be able to then build the platform.

So you're already in the market, right? So those are some of the points I would make on that.

Barrak Alzaid (26:32)

Yeah, I think just finding an entry point, finding a way to keep it sustainable for yourself is so key, especially when you're just starting out. as you continue to wear the investor hat, as you've worn the scale up hat, many of our listeners are not entrepreneurs who are chasing scale. They are maybe not interested in venture capital.

They're happy with making enough to provide for themselves and their family and the people they employ if they have smaller remote teams. But I think that there are valuable lessons that they could apply from those experiences of the scale up venture capital world. What do you think those other entrepreneurs can take away from the way you've navigated those spaces

Ingrid (27:22)

That's a really good question. I would say it is like, you know, not everyone needs to raise venture capital. And I love that because it's one of the questions that I ask him. Like when I mentioned someone's like, do you need to read is it a FOMO thing? Like you just want to say that you raise a lot of money. There's a really good book actually it's called Lost and Founder. He raised venture capital, but he talks about his entrepreneurship journey.

And he actually calculates like if I had sold my company this time, and all my employees would have made way more money than when I sold it at way higher valuation because of the way the stocks worked. Right. So it's, I don't think my first company was bootstrapped. Now, one thing that they can learn is finding the right mentors and finding the right people to support with specific things.

As an entrepreneur, it's so easy for us to hug everything ourselves and be like, I'll do everything. But knowing what you're not good at, that you can outsource to take that from your mind, but also be done well. I think that that's something that when companies are highly capitalized, they do often. So, ⁓ either mentors or finding someone to do the things that like it could be a hire or it could be, you know, and what I call the capacity planning.

When you're building a business a lot of entrepreneurs like oh, but I can't like I won't hire another person and I'm like, okay Can you hire someone for a couple hours a week? Yeah, you don't have to do the jumps like immediately have someone full-time that you're responsible for Can you do someone couple a couple hours a week? Can you do them part-time and creating more comfortable in that environment?

Barrak Alzaid (29:01)

And I think you also learn how to do the work and how to work with others in that less pressure cooker way, especially when you're bootstrapping or self-funding and you're maybe not able to pay yourself, but you're paying somebody else. If you're doing it at a smaller number of hours, at least you get to play around with, in an ideal world, this is what it could potentially look like.

Ingrid (29:29)

Yeah.

Barrak Alzaid (29:30)

One thing that I want to know before we get to the end, So people have many different definitions of success, both in their personal lives and in their business lives. So for you, what does success mean and how do you measure it?

Ingrid (29:44)

For me, success means doing work that has an impact on founders. I love working with founders. I love supporting people with their dreams. Working with smart people that challenge me daily, which is something that I'm doing right now with a climate door and learning a lot.

But also success to me is being able to be excited about work, waking up and being like, I need to do those things. But actually, do I work a lot of weekends? Most of them, but it doesn't feel like I'm dragging my feet. doesn't like it's actually, I love it. Right. So that, that part is more success to me than anything else. And I think I measure it by literally. Again, we have ups and downs, but like my energy levels going to a job that fits me and fits what I like to do is like has skyrocket since doing that so I like to measure success with that

Barrak Alzaid (30:45)

Beautiful. And I have one last question for you, kind of on those lines. A digital entrepreneur, we're big on reconnecting entrepreneurs with the joy of business. When things get hard, what helps you get back to feeling joy in life and in business?

Ingrid (30:59)

I am an extreme workout person. There's one thing I do, if anyone that knows, me is working out. I will often like work long hours go for like usually daily an hour and a half at least either. I've stopped running as much but cycling, gym, hiking, getting something done and then I come back with the fresher head and then put a couple more hours in on like deeper projects. I have a punching bag downstairs that sometimes between meetings if I need to just like you know put some energy out so I would say that working out as something that brought me a lot of joy but also helps clear my mind I think that a lot of times we're really like we're really feeling tired mentally but not physically and then we go to our computer we go to our like and I love video games but like you go to video games you go to like all this and then like that doesn't really empty your head like a good workout does I love reading like I read a lot of fiction loved it I had a time where I only read nonfiction, right? I love reading fiction as like, you know, sitting in the sun in my little hammock reading fiction, really reconnecting with myself. I'm a really introverted person. Like trying to get that time, that introverted time.

Barrak Alzaid (32:18)

That's wonderful. Thank you so much, Ingrid, for sharing your stories, sharing your experiences with us. It was such a pleasure chatting with you today.

Ingrid (32:26)

Yeah, thank you. I'm glad to be here.