Joy, resilience, and owning your story

Interview Summary

Discovering Joy as a Motivator

Timestamp: 00:16–01:34
Jen reflects on an assessment revealing joy as her strongest motivator, surprising her since she expected adversity and anger to drive her. This insight reshaped her entrepreneurial perspective.

Early Tech Roots and Entrepreneurial Spirit

Timestamp: 03:36–04:58
Jen describes teaching herself to type at two, launching a computer company at eight, and being an early adopter of Prodigy—skills nurtured by her mother’s entrepreneurial influence.

Owning Her IP and Rights

Timestamp: 09:25–12:16
Jen recounts regaining control of her brand, emphasizing the importance of IP ownership. She stresses trusting instincts, seeking second opinions, and empowering oneself despite bad advice from early mentors.

Navigating Neurodivergence and Advocacy

Timestamp: 16:47–21:31
Jen shares her autism diagnosis, sensory experiences, and self-advocacy journey. She highlights the importance of boundaries, accommodations, and openly communicating needs while reframing neurodivergence as unique strengths.

Transcript

Transcript

Clip:

Jen I got bad advice in the beginning and I had to pick myself up out of the bad advice pool and decide to go into the empowerment pool I had to pick myself up and not be a victim of the narrative of that person wronged me no they were operating out of their current level of awareness they thought that this was a direction that made sense but they weren't the right person to speak to. But that's okay I did figure out how to own my IP and own my own rights. It's get—enough information on things that you're not familiar with, but also, and maybe this is easy for me because I do have synesthesia that when I say trust my gut, it's unparalleled.

Intro:

You're listening to Joy of Business, a collection of audio essays, timely discussions, and stories featured on digitalentrepreneur.com.

That was a clip from Jen Friel—founder of Talk Nerdy to Me, writer, and unapologetically joyful entrepreneur.

In our conversation, Jen shares how growing up tech-savvy, self-starting, and curious set the stage for a wild ride through media, IP ownership, and self-advocacy as an autistic founder.

Keep listening to hear how Jen took back the rights to her story, what a viral campaign taught her about burnout and boundaries and why dancing it out is her go-to strategy for staying grounded in both life and business.

Barrak Alzaid (00:00)

Hi, Jen, welcome to the Joy of Business. It's such a pleasure to have you here.

Jen (00:03)

Thank you so much for having me.

Barrak Alzaid (00:05)

I'm really excited to get to talk to you about just all the work and all the things that you've done to get you where you are today. And my first question for you is, what does joy is the new success mean to you?

Jen (00:16)

Joy is the New Success, I think resonates in terms of people really seeking to find like an authentic version of joy that maybe they haven't experienced before. Being autistic, I experienced joy immensely. So this is completely my wheelhouse. I'm very excited. And actually amazingly earlier this year, shout out to the Spotlight Advisory Group. I was with Josh Saviano and his colleague Dan.

And Josh was famously played Paul in the Wonder Years. And so we went through this assessment of like kind of discovering what motivates me. And it came back that joy is my biggest motivator, not only for myself, but so that other people can experience it by me expressing pure joy allows other people the permission to do it themselves. And I was actually kind of surprised by that. I wouldn't have thought that that was my biggest motivator, but it is.

Barrak Alzaid (01:07)

Did you find that surprising? Why was that unexpected?

Jen (01:09)

Yeah, because I would have kind of thought that like, I'm also very inspired by like, adversity or like, you know, being really mad at something if I'm like ever ticked off about something. I tend to like, go in another direction or do something. So I would have thought, yeah, I would have thought that that like anger, like something like that would have been a motivator, but it actually joy was a bigger motivator than anger, which was really cool to get to sit with.

Barrak Alzaid (01:34)

And I feel like that's so much better for the nervous system, so much better for the soul. So I'm glad you find that. I think entrepreneurs at any stage of their journey, but especially early stage entrepreneurs, are really trying to find their why, really trying to find what motivates them. And so from your experience going through this process and discovering that joy is at the heart of that, do you have any advice for other people who are entrepreneurs who are trying to uncover their why, uncover that that deep intrinsic motivation.

Jen (02:03)

Yeah, I think the thing that people don't understand ⁓ is that for every one thing that I do that works, there's countless others that definitely did not work. I'm always trying some things. So like I'll teach myself right now I'm in the process of discovering yoga because I've never been a yoga person at all. So I'm like learning all about regulating my nervous system and yoga right now. I'm hugely passionate about it.

But before, I've taken up archery. I'm going after, for example, the Guinness World Record for the claw machine, because I, just this past weekend, caught two animals in a single claw. I was going after a snake, which just takes precision to do. And as I was going after the snake, which was so difficult to get, I got another animal underneath it. So I always just try a bunch of different things, because my mind is so endlessly curious.

So within that comes my why. Within that comes like, this is something that, like, it's not just like I woke up one day saying I'm gonna go after the Guinness World Record, but I've been committed to it for so many years and I pushed myself and I'm like, no, I'm actually really, really good at this. So I kind of discover things through doing it and I just throw so many things up against a wall and I'll have ideas on things that I think are gonna work. sometimes it's about 50-50 that it fares out, but if it doesn't, I just go back and try something new. But I'm never afraid to try. That's huge, I'm never afraid to try.

Barrak Alzaid (03:22)

That makes a lot of sense.

Yeah, that's really key. And I wanna hear, let's go back a little bit. Let's get a little scene setting. How did you get to be where you are today? Can you share a little bit about yourself and your background?

Jen (03:36)

Yeah, I have a really eclectic background. ⁓ So I started typing when I was two. I had my first computer company when I was eight. My mom's an entrepreneur. She's been a business for herself for my entire adult life. And so I learned really early on. First of all, I had access to a computer. I was the only kid in town that had access to a computer and a fax machine, which I thought was really cool.

all these really like kind of funny things happen because I just again had access to technology at such an early age. And so I was captivated by it. I didn't understand what hyperlexic and being hyperlexic was, but instead of like having my parents read books to me, I would read it to them. And so I also like matched the shapes on my pound puppies books up to the computer, because I thought it was magic. I didn't know I was teaching myself how to type. So by the time I was eight, ⁓ I had six years of, you know, being really good at typing.

And so I would just teach people basic word processing skills, emails. I was on Prodigy when only like 400,000 people were on it at the time. yeah, talk about the definition of an early adapter, but ⁓ it was just because I had access to it. yeah, so I'm really grateful to my folks for their love of technology.

Barrak Alzaid (04:44)

Have you always had this entrepreneurial spirit? mean, going from, you know, having a company at age eight or a business at age eight to where you are now, give us the, give us that journey. Like, how did you find yourself where you are now?

Jen (04:58)

So I finished high school early. I found a faster way to do high school I actually took too many classes my freshman year because I didn't have a lunch because I didn't like lunch because like I had no one to sit with ⁓ So I would just take a lot of electives and whatnot and then when it came to junior year all I had to do was take an independent study in gym and summer school English and I got to finish high school in three years and My parents were very supportive of me. I wanted to move to New York City. So I think their support definitely allowed me to be like, oh, I can do anything. Because then, you I worked for a year and then I literally did move to New York at 17 when Sex and the City was still being filmed. So it was like peak coolness of what was happening. And but I couldn't sign a lease. I couldn't open a gym membership. I couldn't have a bank account. So so it was just kind of interesting to have that like kind of like feeling like a little adult.

but not legally being one. But with their support, I moved to Los Angeles after they kicked me out of their condo at age 18, this time in Florida. And I moved to LA and tail as old as time. My dad literally shouted at me one day and he's like, you're too good at the things that you do. If you want to pursue entertainment, which is what I wanted at the time, you need to go out to Los Angeles and do it. And he literally said, I will drive you there myself. So I found an apartment on Craigslist, lived with six other people.

true story of like eating ramen and you know not kind of knowing what to do but but I really I found my way very consistently and I think each in each of those moments I could have said okay mom and dad you know I'm 18 you're kicking me out like well why don't I get an apartment down the street but I didn't I said I can move to Los Angeles so that gave me the beginning of this unshakable confidence that anytime I put my mind to something I can do it

And then when I started Talk Nerdy to Me, technically it was called Talk Nerdy to Me Lover first, but now I own all my rights, so you can go to TalkNerdyToMe.com. But when I first started that, I just really thought I was too late to the game in terms of starting a website, because websites in my mind had been around for forever at that point. I knew social media was going to be big. I didn't know how big. And so it was right place, right time. And even the guy who cheated on me, which was the impetus for me starting it, this goes back to the anger, I was so ticked, he wasn't listening to my ideas. Even the guy who cheated on me, the person I purchased the domain from worked directly below the apartment complex from where he lived. So I introduced myself to him back in 2009 before I recently bought it in 2020. Anyone in the world can own a domain. He lived directly beneath the apartment complex from the dude that cheated on

Barrak Alzaid (07:29)

That is wild. That is absolutely wild.

Jen (07:31)

so many things that I cannot explain and understand and there's no logic. There's no, I have to believe it has something to do with synesthesia. I'm not, because like why did I introduce myself to him? It's very strange, but it's also wonderful and magical and also gives me a unique sense of confidence as well.

Barrak Alzaid (07:48)

So, you know, I feel like it also gives us a little bit of insight into how all the different kind of pieces come together in this unique intersection of your bold, unique personal brand that mixes storytelling, technology, relationships. So how do you make sense of all of that coming together?

Jen (08:04)

So I knew that nerds being hot was gonna be a thing. And I had been a commercial model at that point and done fairly well in terms of direct bookings. And I was on snork tease for like 13 years as the abstinence girl. So considering it's like a fast fashion t-shirt line, but it lasted that long, kind of goes to show you some things there. But I knew that nerds were gonna be hot. knew that they were gonna be a thing. I knew that I could champion and cheerlead that.

But it was kind of initially, I was just doing documenting stuff to like get a job. Because I'm like, I'm really good at predicting stuff. So I'm just going to document my ideas and get a job from it. And then it wasn't until I was with a girlfriend of mine, We were sitting there one day and she's like, you love what you do. You're always on the site. Like you're constantly promoting it. But she's like, but you really should start to date. Because I was like, I'm fine. I don't need a guy. I'm good. Like I'm doing me. This is like my me time.

And all those narratives that we tell ourselves. But we literally opened up a bottle of wine and we went on OKCupid and that completely changed my life. That was kind of the moment where it was like, this is interesting. And then I accidentally became a dating expert blogger. And that's how it got the attention of Jerry Bruckheimer because he heard about the 103 dates in nine months.

Barrak Alzaid (09:19)

I mean, there's so much to unpack there and you ended up getting those rights back, is that correct?

Jen (09:25)

Yeah, so during COVID, just, I wanted to own everything that I had ever created. So obviously now this is a huge story in the news in terms of Taylor Swift and how big of a deal it is for her to own her own rights. And so it was during COVID, obviously had a lot of time on my hands and I was like, like we all did. And so I was like, well, no matter what I do next, I just wanna make sure I own everything. There is such a power, especially in being a woman.

like owning all of your own rights, making sure that I fully get to own my vision in a way that I've never done before.

And then amazingly, CBS announced just a little bit ago that they were redeveloping Talk Nerdy to Me. So I had brought it, well, technically Jerry Bruckheimer brought it to the networks. And so it was in a four way bidding war between ABC, CBS, NBC and Fox.

And so CBS bought it as a put pilot, meaning a pilot with a penalty. So you get paid if they don't pick it up, which is a holy grail situation, no matter what you're getting paid allegedly. And so, Les Moonves very famously now after me too, it's been all in the news. He doesn't pay out pilots with penalties. So, know, took that to attorneys, read everything again. And I'm like, wait a minute, but I think I can own all my own rights. If I hadn't done that, CBS could have just filed with their huge legal department, you know, billion dollar company.

I'm literally one person who just said, I better make sure I own everything. Because whatever I was going into next, I wanted to take all those lessons from what I had originally built. But CBS making that announcement means that I have relevant IP. And then I went viral to 4.3 million people. So it's like, it's so unbelievable how all that happened. But I knew to follow my instincts. I followed my gut. And I took action because it's one thing to think of these things, but if I hadn't done that and followed that impulse and also have a really supportive partner, because I'm married now and my partner is amazing, but if I didn't have a supportive partner who made that because we made that investment together, it wouldn't have been such a cool story. It would have been, I had my life rights once, but then CBS took them over. And that wouldn't have been nearly as cool as saying I own everything.

Barrak Alzaid (11:31)

And I also think it's such an important lesson for every entrepreneur, but especially early stage entrepreneurs who are kind of bombarded with so much input, and especially now in this era of AI where we just kind of hand everything over.

in this very easy transactional way and expect to get results in ways that our lives are supposed to be made easier. But what we're not thinking about, what many people are not thinking about are that IP element. is there any advice that you have in this domain for early stage entrepreneurs about how to protect their IP? mean, they're probably not going to sell their life rights to Jerry Bruckheimer anytime soon. But is there a nugget that

Jen (11:46)

Mhm. Mm-hmm. You never know.

Barrak Alzaid (12:13)

Yeah, is there a nugget that they can take from your experience?

Jen (12:16)

Yeah, so basically I got bad advice in the beginning and like it doesn't matter that that that happened It really doesn't it was it just was what it was But it's like I had to pick myself up out of the bad advice pool and decide to go into the Empowerment pool I had to pick myself up and not be a victim of the narrative of like that person wronged me or that did this it's like no they were operating out of their current level of awareness they thought that this was you know, a direction that made sense and all of that, but they weren't the right person to speak to. But that's okay because then, like I said, I did figure out how to own my IP and own my own rights. it's get enough information on things that you're not familiar with, but also, and maybe this is easy for me because I do have synesthesia that when I say trust my gut, it's unparalleled.

Trust whatever guidance within yourself that got you to where you're going and keep asking questions and assess does this person really know what they're talking about or should I seek a second opinion? You know, don't get overwhelmed in the process, but just keep kind of asking yourself those questions and hopefully it'll come to you.

Barrak Alzaid (13:21)

That self-assuredness and that sense of knowing yourself is so deeply meaningful. And I think one of the big things that keeps people from moving forward in their lives, moving forward in their businesses is a fear of failure. And there's so much conversation around, building resilience and being adaptable and...

I think these are important qualities for any person, but especially for entrepreneurially minded folks. Can you talk about a time when something didn't go as planned and how did you navigate that?

Jen (13:50)

Yes, it was one of the worst nights of my life, actually. was when Tech for Obama organically trended on Twitter.

I was just kind of monitoring the conversation in social media. And one of my goals was to get something to trend organically because at the time it cost over $200,000 to do. And there was no science behind it. Twitter, they openly admitted, they're like, we just push stuff out and certain things hit and certain things don't. But for a year and a half, I'd say at that time, if not longer, it was just a goal of mine to be a part of it, to figure something out, like how can I solve this problem in my mind and achieve this goal? So I'm promoting Tech for Obama on my account, and Hill Harper was there, and Sharon Lawrence as well. And in my account, by the end of the night, wound up being the top influencer, and it wound up trending organically in social media. So as these numbers are coming in...

I'm literally freaking out, like, you know, not distracting, obviously, from whoever was speaking, but I'm like in the back, like in the booth going like, ⁓ my God, this is incredible. I think this could happen. I think this could happen. And then of course it did. And it became the hit of the evening because obviously, you know, the campaign didn't have to pay, you know, that hefty price tag to get it to organically trend. So Hill Harper and Sharon Lawrence are immediately like, who are you? Like, let's hang out. So get invited to the after party at Hill Harper's house.

And so I got to, from my perspective, have like one of the best nights of my life because I'm like, I love social media. I'm now explaining why this is a big deal. Like I was in my world and I remember being on the bus ride back and texting my friends, freaking out and being like, ⁓ well.

Can't you come hang out? Like this is a huge deal. I called the guy I was dating, he was busy, called all these friends and texted and all these things. And I literally had no one to hang out with. And I was like, oh, this is really sad. This is one of the biggest moments of my life. So then I went to the Surly Goat on Santa Monica Boulevard just so I could at least play Street Fighter, because Street Fighter never fails. Except in this night when it did not work So I had a full blown meltdown and it was just like what is happening, I don't have friends, because of course I was so busy and I had fans of the site that I'd meet up with. I'd be dating so much that I'm documenting all these things that I just didn't have like a true social life. So when something like this happened, I had no one to share it with. That set me in a direction. That set me down. Like, what am I doing all this for? I just achieved in my mind the one goal I've been after. This is so huge to me.

And it's like, because even being the top influencer in it, so it's not just that it happened. It was my account that pushed it over the top. So all these things felt like such a win. And I was just so horrifically sad. And, ⁓ and that kind of made me realize that there was this underbelly of depression and sadness that I was experiencing because I didn't have the connectivity that I was actually after in the first place. So that kind of put me in a more prioritization of my mental health in a different way, because I was like, well, what am I doing all this for? And I started to ask myself those questions. And that led me down a completely different path than I probably would have taken.

Barrak Alzaid (16:47)

Thank you for sharing that. I want to go back a little bit. You mentioned earlier in our conversation, and also you're very vocal about being neurodivergent and being autistic. Can you tell us a little bit about what that looks like for you, and how has that shaped the way that you build, lead, and relate to your work?

Jen (17:08)

It changed absolutely everything. So first of all, the fact that I even got diagnosed as level one, which is, you know, it's what they used to call Asperger's, but obviously that's an outdated term. And you'll hear a lot of times, even myself in the beginning, using a phrase like high functioning, those are not great words to use. It just says an FYI for anybody. Yeah. Like listening. So what I am is I'm what they call a level one. So level one means I have low support needs.

But it doesn't mean I have no support needs because especially on the sensory side of things, I see auras, I hear notes in terms of people, everybody has a tone attached to them. And then when I write, I hear notes.

But I had no idea that any of that wasn't normal. thought that this is just what made me creative or unique. And so the fact that I got diagnosed is unbelievable to me.

I joke now that being autistic is the only thing that I'm basic on. So one of the things is with autism, you're either a train, it's one of the memes that's going around. You're either a train autistic or you're a water autistic. And obviously I'm a water autistic, but I also love trains. So it's funny to see all these things being played out. My absolute obsession with Sour Patch Kids, Diet Coke is one of my safe drinks. And then I have Haribo gummy bears and ramen as my safe food.

Like I've been doing these things my entire life. And so it was a lot of, and I 5150 myself back in 2007. And I'm really proud of that because I was having an autistic meltdown at the same time as a sensory meltdown, as the same time as a lot of unprocessed trauma. So, cause when you're undiagnosed, like you don't recognize that certain things are red flags that other people pick up on. And so they might not share those things with you or, you know, I might not believe it. So it was a huge learning curve to setting certain boundaries in my life, to really kind of understanding that these are beautiful, unique gifts, but I have to moderate my nervous system. I have to moderate my sensory input and sensory intake, and I have to have a lot of downtime. So I basically work in a cave. And so people think that I'm super social, but it's because I don't talk to anybody during the day. And then I have my blip of social activity, and then I'm great, and then I come back home. It's very...I have myself down to a routine that works very well, but I had no idea before. And so I'd get really frustrated and really angry and take it out on people. And that's not fair to them, but I just, didn't know what these instances were. Like I had seizures, had fainting spells. So I had all these tests and MRIs and they couldn't figure it out because a lot of it can mirror epilepsy in certain instances, but I'm not epileptic. So it was a really...really beautiful journey. I was really angry. My husband had to do a little mini anger intervention and so I had to like release all the anger that I felt from telling doctors there's something wrong and being told like, do you need a vacation? You look a little stressed. And I'm like, how I did not punch you in the face is like beyond me except, you know, I have self control even though I'm also ADHD with impulses. yeah, so it's really...to me, Ben, the most empowering part of this journey is not just owning my rights, but getting to own my sense of self. Because now I tell everybody basically within the first five minutes of us meeting, I'm like, hey, I'm autistic. So then for them, it's like, OK, cool.

And now I'm on this journey and on this path that I never expected. I just assumed I'd been tested for autism. I just assumed what I experienced with synesthesia, everybody else experienced. So ⁓ it was a really big like aha moment.

Fiercely passionate about making sure people understand what to look for particularly in women because medical sexism is a real thing and it's a huge problem

Barrak Alzaid (20:52)

Thank you for turning that into really important advocacy. And I think it leads to, I have a question that actually has two parts. one is, for those entrepreneurs who are neurodivergent, who may have ADHD or are autistic or any one of a number of ways in which you can be neurodivergent and show up in the world.

What advice do you have for them, especially when the world just is unforgiving and doesn't give the same opportunities or the same paths for people who are existing outside of the expected norms?

Jen (21:31)

I'm, oh, this is so hard because it's still like I'm on a moment by moment basis of how I'm kind of defining this even within myself. I think people are more open to helping, but you have to fiercely advocate for yourself. And like there's so many times, like when I travel, for example, I still have yet to say like, hey, I'm autistic, because you can also qualify for certain pre-boarding. I'm like, no, I don't really need that.

I'm okay. It's not really that bad. I'm only level one. I say this to myself and it's like, depending on the circumstances, like I might need that additional time and I might need that. Like sometimes if people get too close to me, I will lose it. And so that actually happened. I went with my folks and my husband on a cruise this past January and I had been on cruises before and I, you know, never had a problem. You just kind of walk in, you do your thing. But this one, there was a problem and there was a lot of standing around and everyone was super clustered in this space.

And I felt it, was like, I'm about to, cause I go into this like dissociative state where I know I'm about to check out and then I caught myself. I was like, no, I said, this is when I advocate for myself. So it shouldn't, technically I should have done it before, but I'm not judging myself for it. But when I did get that bad, that's when I called it out and said, I'm autistic, you and then people look at me and they judge cause they're like, come on, are you really autistic? And it's like

I'm like, I'm autistic and they're with me, but we can figure this out. I just need to be in a different area and away from people right now because especially with seeing auras and hearing vibrational energy, I can get so overwhelmed by that much noise and that much sound, kind of internally in terms of my processing, that it becomes unbearable. And you can physically see it. Like I look very different when it starts to happen.

So yeah, so I then advocated for myself and then was just, all I did was just sit to the side for the rest of the time. So it wasn't like, there's no like red carpet, like special area, but, that's not what I'm after either. I just want to be treated like everybody else in the sense that yes, I have these unique gifts, but it comes with certain prices, so to speak. It has, it's double edged sword, And so.

Just certain things like that, I have to advocate for myself, but also kind of discover, you know, I'm discovering these things as I go. I don't have a manual to operate from, you know, and sometimes something may bother me. And I think this is a misconception people have is sometimes I can be bothered by crowds and other times I'm totally fine. So it's like, it all depends on kind of where my nervous system is and how much time to regulate I've really had.

How much exposure to light have I had? just little things that I know that I need that can let me do things. But it's not like every single time here's a cookie cutter of yes, you know, this is going to bother me. And sometimes I'm really surprised by it. But I do carry loops with me. Shout out to loops. They're a godsend. So I can still fully converse. I just put them in my ears. I keep them on me at all times. And I can be fully engaged in conversation with people and live my best life.

That's one of the ways that I'm able to create accommodations for myself so that, again, I can live my best life. All I'm trying to do is just survive. This isn't asking for too much here. And not use things like heavily medicating with alcohol or other things that are easy to use and to...using different ways that potentially lead to other problems. So it's figuring out what that looked like for me, but it's a process and communicating it to my partner too. But like I said, I found a really good one and he's so supportive and so loving.

When you do find one and they do treat you with so much respect, it's a game changer.

Barrak Alzaid (25:08)

It's so crucial knowing yourself, being able to advocate for yourself,

last question for you, Jen.

And it kind of brings us back to the beginning of the conversation and our conversation about joy. At Digital Entrepreneur, we're really big on reconnecting entrepreneurs with the joy of business. So when things get hard for you, what helps you get back to feeling joy in life and in business?

Jen (25:30)

I dance. I literally wiggle it out. So I either watch, Patrick Swayze is one of my favorites. I just do Patrick Swayze dance moves. And even his roller skating skills are just like next level. But I watch dance, the center stage. I watch only the dance sections on YouTube of my favorite dance movies. And it just brings me so much joy. And if you've ever seen Patrick Swayze and his then wife, dance together. It is just like they are on another level. So I watch a lot of dance and I wiggle it out and I do a lot of walking

And that to me, once I can get in my body, it starts to move stuff around in my head. So if my head feels like sludge, if I'm not motivated, if I'm not, you know, doing certain things, it, I first of all, embrace that I embrace what I'm feeling in that day. And again, I have a super supportive partner, but you know, because there's also bills to pay and things of that nature.

But I really focus on getting in my body as much as possible. And that gets me reconnected to joy. That gets me reconnected to seeing things in a beautiful way and not being kind of in that like pool of, know, woe is me or man, this didn't work out the way I wanted it to or why do things have to happen to me this way? Like, I don't live in that world. I can't operate in that world. So I have to physically pull myself out of it by moving my body as much as possible. And wiggling is a very great way for me to do that and express joy at the same time.

Barrak Alzaid (27:03)

think

we could all use a little bit more wiggling in our lives. Well, Jen, thank you so much for sharing your experiences, your wisdom, and your stories with us. I'm really so grateful to you. And I know your words will really have an impact on so many emerging entrepreneurs out there.

Jen (27:06)

Yeah amazing. and just thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.